In the episode, Elena talks to Jaime Russell, a Spanish-English certified ATA translator and certified healthcare interpreter. The focus of the new season is AI and its role and place in interpreting. Before that topical discussion, we discussed the profession in South America, how Jaime got started and what changes she has made in her career.
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[00:00:00] Welcome to not quite magic, a podcast about interpreters. I'm Elena Langdon, and for this second season, I'm talking to a variety of interpreters around the world about AI and its role or place in interpreting. I'm happy to say we are sponsored by the MasterWord Institute, where you can find training and testing for interpreters and those who work with them. Check out their offeringsat masterword.institute.
For this first episode of the season, I interviewed Jaime Russell, an English Spanish interpreter based in Raleigh, North Carolina. Most of her work has been in healthcare settings. And she's heavily involved in professional associations. Jamie also recently made an exciting change in her career. Let's listen to her story.
Elena Langdon: Well, welcome, Jamie. I'm so happy to have you here as we restart Not Quite Magic and launch this [00:01:00] season that's dedicated to AI or machine interpreting. So thank you again for, for accepting my invitation.
Jaime Russell: No, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here with you this morning. So I'll start with the first question that I usually ask, which is based on the name of the podcast.
Elena Langdon: So what does seem like magic to you?
Jaime Russell: So I was thinking about this a little bit this morning, and the first thing that popped into my mind was, it's definitely magic how you can be in any, almost any corner of the world within a matter of 1, 2, 3 days, and that is something that if you were to ask somebody from the past about this, that would be complete magic.
Jaime Russell: And I still find it mind boggling.
Elena Langdon So, yeah, I, I agree [00:02:00] with you on that. Every time I fly, I still think, like, how did they. Figure this out. And how are we not falling from the sky?
Jaime Russell: Exactly. Exactly.
Elena Langdon So thank you for that. What is the short version of what you tell your potential clients about what you do? So it will depend a little bit on the client.
Jaime Russell: So if it's somebody who I can tell has had no exposure, To language or or translating and interpreting, I will 1st, start off saying I'm a Spanish translator and interpreter because that word translator resonates a lot more with the general public than the word interpreter does. And. And if someone has heard interpreter before, it might be for American Sign Language. So that's how I start out. I say I'm a Spanish translator and interpreter. I help people get their message into the other language and vice versa. [00:03:00]
Elena Langdon Nice. That's a good short version. It's interesting because I find myself doing the same thing with using the word translator. And if it's a really quick exchange, so it's not a problem, and let's say an Uber driver or something, sometimes I, I only say translator, I have to say for very much the same reason, you know, that, that term interpreter is not always people recognize as, you You know, like, what does that mean? And if you're, if you do want to invite more questions, then sure.
Jaime Russell: But if you're trying to get it out quickly, yeah. Yeah. And putting it first to write translator and interpreter, and then you can, then there might be a little bit of an indication of what is that, what that is.
Elena Langdon Yeah. So what is the longer version? Like, can you tell us a little bit about how you got started, what your work looks like, any evolution, any changes? I know that you've gone through some pretty big ones recently. [00:04:00] And then what a typical What a typical work week looks like for you right now.
Jaime Russell: So the longer version is very long. Sometimes I do a kind of an elevator pitch where people ask me, well, how did you get into that? How did you become a translator and interpreter?
Jaime Russell: So, I have come up with sort of a summarized version of. I'm originally from the Washington, D. C. area born and raised there a semester abroad in Argentina during college ended up being 15 years. I graduated university in Argentina, and I started working as a freelance translator. Handling documents from Spanish into English for a bunch of different agencies, a lot of them based in Argentina, but other international agencies moved back to the U.
Jaime Russell: S. in 2010. Worked in international nonprofits and philanthropy for a while because of [00:05:00] my Spanish skills. 2019, I decided to exit that sector and go back to translating and that's when I ran into the machine translation world. I had known about it, but I hadn't worked in it a lot and that was jarring and in the D.
Jaime Russell: C. area. That was unfortunately not enough income. And so one of the agencies I worked for as a translator, I was working as a medical translator for a lot of clinical trial documentation. And that's a whole other world. And they asked me if I wanted to explore doing medical interpreting assignments. I said, sure.
Jaime Russell: I love to talk. Love, love, love to talk. And then I figured, oh, wow, I can get paid for talking. And so that's how I ended up in interpreting. So I was doing that for a while. The pandemic hit. Everything was crazy. I didn't have a single job for [00:06:00] 2 months. D. C. Mortgage was still knocking on my door. So my sister lives here in North Carolina, where I currently live, and she was like, y'all need to move down here.
Jaime Russell: Cost of living is much cheaper. So I applied for a job as a Spanish interpreter at U. N. C. health hospital in Chapel Hill. A lot of people have heard of U. N. C. because of basketball. It's a big deal. I didn't know about it that much until I applied for the job there. I got the job very quickly. They were in dire need of interpreters.
Jaime Russell: So I started working there as a full time staff interpreter. At the hospital, it's amazing. It's an amazing profession. You see things you're able to help people. It's so very interesting and stimulating. It is very tiring as well. Long days, very intense days. The cognitive load on an interpreter is enormous, [00:07:00] and then you have emotional loads on top of that with difficult situations.
Jaime Russell: So last year I was promoted to the education specialist at UNC for our department for interpreter services. Lots of trainings, lots of educating staff members on language access. And very recently, I decided to decrease my hours at the hospital and go back to freelancing. So I started out as a freelancer.
Jaime Russell: Then I was a staff interpreter and now I'm going back to freelancing and I'm hoping to add on some more teaching opportunities and court interpreting. That's my big next project. So my typical work week is crazy. I'm in a mix between hospital duties and freelance duties.
Elena Langdon: Well, thank you. That's, that's, that is a lot. I feel like a [00:08:00] lot of us in the field do a lot. I feel like a lot of us women do a lot. And even the culture in general, right? We all are like, everything's crazy. I want to touch upon a few things that you said because I know of some of the differences In terms of training and the education, and even the profession around translation in Argentina and other South American company countries that I'm aware of. And I think I think it's somewhat similar in Europe. Right? So where you have. In, in Brazil, it's called a tradutor juramentado, I don't know if it's juramentado in Spanish or not, but it's an official profession. You get appointed by the Chamber of Commerce and you, because of the legal system there that's much more based on written documents, at least used to be, I think it is changing [00:09:00] a little bit right now.
But. Primarily you're a translator, but you also are an interpreter in this official capacity. And you can't even get that. You can't get nominated for the position, at least in Brazil. Again, in the past when I was living there, it was in 2002, 2003 when I lived there again. And so maybe things have changed, but at the time I couldn't even apply for it because I wasn't born in Brazil.
You had to be. Born you, even if I had become a Brazilian citizen, I couldn't do it. You have to be born. Yeah. You know, as they say, Portuguese natural from, from that country. And I could you talk a little bit about that? Like you were in college, did you get a degree in, in the field or how was it to interact?
And then the change when you came back to the States for that profession, because it's, well, let me hear what you have to say about it. Thank you.
Jaime Russell: Yeah, so in [00:10:00] Argentina translators are
Jaime Russell: so you actually have to have a university degree in that. And then in order. To legally act as a translator and to handle official documentation, you have to register with different sort of professional bodies there. You can't just like, go out on your own and then call yourself a translator in Argentina has a lot of those professional bodies for different professions.
Jaime Russell: A lot of the engineering bodies have their own associations. Even if you want to be, like, a business person just own businesses, open businesses. You don't have to officially be associated with the The business body, that's through the chamber of commerce, but most people are, it's a testament to kind of your dedication to the profession and it does provide you certain legal protections.
Jaime Russell: If something were to happen. So, regarding the profession of transit in [00:11:00] Argentina, and it's very demanding and it's very. Highly esteemed. So it's a full university degree, usually five years through the university system. And then when you get out, you have to take some tests and present all your paperwork to be able to be accepted into these professional associations.
Jaime Russell: Now, when I was in Argentina, I was working as a freelancer. So in Argentina, when you get a university degree, In translation, it is from English, or French, or Italian, or German, into Spanish. So, that's what it conveys. My native language is English. So, a lot of these agencies would need things from Spanish into English.
Jaime Russell: So, a lot of the official translators, los traductores publicos Either couldn't do it because of the limitations of their university degree, or [00:12:00] their association kind of a profile. So that's when the agencies would contact me. And, as, you know, in this field. Translators are expected to translate into their native language for different reasons.
Jaime Russell: Mainly because it's more natural. The flow is better word choice matches up a little bit better. I, I have some opinions on that, but I, I can completely understand why that is. I don't think personally, I would feel comfortable translating very long, maybe complex documents into Spanish. Again, English is my native language, so I was a pure freelancer in Argentina, making good money in Argentina because I worked for some U.
Jaime Russell: S. agencies who would pay me in dollars. So it was, it was it's a pretty good gig I had going on. And then when I came back up to the U. S. The U. S. market is very unregulated. There might be certain agencies, government agencies, that require, [00:13:00] for example, ATA certification or a university degree or some other testing that they might give specific to their agency that you have to pass.
Jaime Russell: But for the most part, anybody can call themselves a translator and an interpreter, and there's really not much that can be done about it, unfortunately. So I was still freelancing when I came back up to the U. S., but the rates at that time just were not, not ideal. So that's how I got into the non profit sector.
Jaime Russell: Yeah. Thank you. I, you're so right about the, the differences in the, in the market, especially from that regulatory viewpoint. I think, you know, and the, the general, even the respect and the recognition of it as a profession, right? Because as you said here in the, here in the United States, and I think it's one of the few places that it's like that [00:14:00] you, anybody can call themselves a translator or an interpreter.
Jaime Russell: And when the, The whole idea of a gig economy really took hold. It was because of that, one of the professions that just kind of went, went there maybe not professions, I should say, but one of the fields or one of the, the jobs that people thought were conveniently made sense to do it. And it's a fight that we've all been in, right?
Jaime Russell: And through associations, through certifying bodies, through a little bit of lobbying that happens there should, you know, I'd always like for there to be more, but for us to be recognized as a profession and really have a lot more regulation around it, you know, think of that. And this is, you know, for people who aren't aware, you don't need a degree.
Jaime Russell: You don't need anything in most other countries you do. One of the, the only difference really in the States is for ASL interpreters, for American sign [00:15:00] language interpreters, same thing, right? They need a college degree in, in that. And given the, the importance and the risk of everything that we touch. For the most part it really still baffles, baffles my mind how, how we don't have that.
Jaime Russell: Well, and also, I also do evaluations and training and things like that, and it's extremely common for people to overestimate their language skills. So, so it's like a, it's a double whammy almost because you have anybody can just call themselves a translator and interpreter, and most people overestimate their language proficiency.
Jaime Russell: So, as a potential client, you're really walking in blind as to that person's credentials and their true skills on the flip end. For example, and this is my case right now, I've have all sorts of credentials and sort of proof [00:16:00] of my language skills. But if I had to have a university degree that would have been extremely limiting for me in my professional career.
Jaime Russell: And a lot of people. In our field, start out in something different finance law, you know, we have a lot of people in common who are lawyer linguists. For example, a lot of MDs who immigrate from other countries, they cannot practice medicine here in the United States, but then they go into medical interpreting and they're very highly successful.
Jaime Russell: So, in that sense, it is nice to have an open door. For professionals who truly have the skills to continue on and formalize. Their skills, but at the same time those are, you know, those are the exceptions. So I don't know. I, you know, I have conflicting feelings about that because in my case, if somebody would have been like, well, where's your university degree that would have ended it.
Jaime Russell: I would have had to go on to something different. [00:17:00] I would have had to go on to the business administration degree. I got in Argentina doing something completely different. Yeah, you're right. The, the rigidity of it, because it can be very rigid in, in, in other places would, would be definitely a downside to it.
Jaime Russell: So that flexibility afforded by, by capitalism and, and all, and all the other market regulations I guess it just needs to be the work that we continue to do at associations and other, other places that can hope to have some, some influence, right. And, and bringing us together as. As a profession and as professionals more and more with the, you know, with teaching, with training anything that, that when someone starts working, working as an interpreter, They can then be part of something that's actually a, a profession and not just, not just a job.
Jaime Russell: And, and know about it as well, because a lot of people act as translators or [00:18:00] interpreters for years, years before they even hear of the associations or credentialing bodies. And that, that seems a bit odd to me but it's very common. Yes, for sure. One other thing I wanted to touch upon. In terms of what you said before is the emotional load.
Jaime Russell: So I love the way you termed how there's a cognitive load, which people who studied interpreting have heard of and this idea of an emotional load. So, if you could talk a little bit more about that transition from from translation to interpreting, and that kind of with that kind of a light or a focus.
Jaime Russell: Sure. So you know, as a translator, you work behind the scenes. Lots of times, you actually have no contact whatsoever with either the end client or the target audience that your text will be you know, aimed at. So you're kind of like a mystery writer a little bit. I [00:19:00] would say, and it's very easy to separate yourself out from that.
Jaime Russell: I think translators probably get emotionally involved with their end product that they're about to deliver. We've all had it. Where you turn in a project and you're never really convinced you're never 100 percent convinced. There's always that 1 sentence or that 1 term. That's still like, bugging your brain a little bit.
Jaime Russell: And then you wake up at 3 in the morning and it's like being right. Oh, my gosh. I should have put that in. Yes. So that, but that's sort of a very internal load. And then I think as you progress and you're. profession, you learn to kind of get over that a little bit. But when you're interpreting, especially in community interpreting, which is a little bit different from conference interpreting, community interpreting is you are involved, heavily involved right there with the people you're serving.
Jaime Russell: So the people who [00:20:00] are benefiting from your language skills are sitting right next to you. They're listening to your voice. And it goes this other way as well. So there's You know, people crying, people yelling you know, babies being born. This is all in the hospital setting, but there, you know, in the school setting, you could have some children who have some severe learning delays and they're not making progress and it's very frustrating for the family.
Jaime Russell: So that emotional part for us as human beings is hard. Also in the community setting. I don't know if it's good or bad, but it is what it is. Lots of times, we're expected to be more than an excuse me more than an interpreter. So we're kind of expected to be a liaison helping people navigate different systems. I was. Giving a class last week, [00:21:00] and 1 of my students gave me an example of something that she'll never forget. And it wasn't exactly the interpreting, but she met. Somebody at the door and was walking them back. Through the hallways to the room that they were supposed to go into, she said, this poor lady unloaded on her all of the details of her divorce.
Jaime Russell: And so, and then they walked into the room and she's just supposed to kind of like. You know, delete all of that, just know all of that in her brain and we've had excuse me. That is the emotional load that we carry. And also, because the communication. We have a burden of, making sure the communication is as accurate as possible.
Jaime Russell: So, if you're a new interpreter, or maybe you're in a new situation there's also that worry of, oh, my gosh, what if I say something that's maybe wrong? Maybe not the best way to say it. What if I misunderstand something? [00:22:00] So, and once it's out, like, you don't have a chance to correct it. You can, you can, but, but a lot of times it, you know, it's already out.
Jaime Russell: The words have come out. The other person has heard them that way. And you, if you need to make a correction, you might not actually realize until a few sentences later by that time. It's like ancient history. What you said 5 sentences prior. So there's that emotional load. Some people. Who work in delicate settings, complicated settings, like, they might go home, or they might go to their car and, like, cry.
Jaime Russell: I've, I've personally never had that happened. My mother was a nurse in a hospital for 45 years. So I think she jaded me a little bit with her stories. But I, I definitely can see how it's, it's, it's a burden. And then the court system, you know, somebody's You know, freedom could potentially be at risk or depending on the state where you live, their life could be at risk as well.
Jaime Russell: And, you know, if we're in charge of the [00:23:00] communication, so that's what I was referring to. And I said, the emotional burden. Yeah, so, so well put and your example of of the woman who unloaded the whole story of her divorce, there's that. That emotional load, all the things that, you know, are now going on in the background for the interpreter and also what I've found is that then the, the person who's, you know, talk to you about this.
Jaime Russell: Kind of expects as would be expected in normal relationships when you're talking to someone that that's going to. You know, affect how they talk about you or how they see you and sometimes wanting the or expecting the interpreter, even just so unconsciously expecting the interpreter to fill in things or, you know, I'm sure you've gotten the.
Jaime Russell: The comment from [00:24:00] the, from the, from a patient saying, oh, well, you know, you can just tell him. I just told you about it. Or, you know, as I was telling you, or even I've just, I have actually felt that the person isn't saying more because they're assuming that I'm going to fill in the blanks. Yeah. And, you know, that and that.
Jaime Russell: Recommendation of don't be alone with the patient is, is great, but it doesn't, it doesn't work in practice in many instances. So, you know, how do you, how do you navigate that? And yes, the, the emotional burden or the emotional load can be, can be quite high and I'm grateful that. Within the last 5, 10 years, we've been talking so much more about this for interpreters and vicarious trauma and how it happens for interpreters.
Jaime Russell: And what are the, you know, what are the strategies? What are the things that we can do to mitigate it and to help even in the moment, right? So that you can stay focused on [00:25:00] that. Yeah, on the content and this question does come up as, you know, you know, we're not supposed to be left alone with the people we're serving, but it happens or we're walking out and they grab you.
Jaime Russell: And from a human perspective. I will always offer up. Help to direct them to someone else. So, you know, if somebody's saying, oh, my gosh, my divorce, you know, I just got served with papers yesterday or something like that. I don't know what to do. My life is falling apart. You know, some comforting words in the moment just to acknowledge lots of times people just want to be heard.
Jaime Russell: They don't necessarily want you to do something about it, but they want to be heard. So just acknowledgement of, oh, my gosh, that's so difficult. I can't imagine what you're going through. And that's not going to change your interpreting interaction later on. And then if you realize that this person as another human being could use for their help, you could, like, this, for example, example was in a school [00:26:00] setting you know, you could offer up something like would, would it help if after we finish, we go find the school social worker?
Jaime Russell: Who can maybe provide you with some more resources? We can ask her. Maybe there's a community resources out there. So listen, and then redirect that potential need to another professional. Yeah. Thank thank you for that. Because it again, it's another thing that I find that new interpreters or students. Can kind of go either way, sometimes it's too extreme where they're like, no, I, I can't do anything.
Jaime Russell: I'm just the interpreter. I'm just there to interpret. And so I don't say anything, you know, for a couple of years as part of the, an exam that I had in a longer course, like, a semester or a year long course I was seeing that the, the answers to a midterm about, you know, [00:27:00] What would you do if somebody came and told you, for example, that they were a victim of domestic abuse and, you know, they were in a bad situation with their spouse and an alarmingly high number.
Jaime Russell: This is after the whole semester talking about some of these issues along with all the other issues about interpreting and the technical skills. Alarmingly high number of them would say, well, I can't do anything. And You know, I, I would, I, I would just not do anything and not do anything. And just like you said, thinking about it from the human perspective, thinking about it in that situation so, so many times.
Jaime Russell: The person is only going to say it once and you know, it takes, it can take months, years for women to come forth with something like that. You're, you know, you're, you're, you're a story about the divorce is a little bit different, but at the same time, it really isn't. And it's a good example to show that [00:28:00] above all, yes, we're humans trying to connect.
Jaime Russell: And the only way in my opinion to truly connect to truly communicate is to connect. And if there isn't that connection, so let's say this does happen before, or even after you've interpreted, but you will see the person later on at some point or even you won't, but another interpreter will and you just dismiss it completely and appear to be completely insensitive.
Jaime Russell: There is that chance that now they're like, okay, you know, these interpreters are really not again. This is probably all at the unconscious level, but the interpreters are not. There is no connection. They don't care. They don't care about me. Right? And if you think somebody doesn't care, you're not going to share as much.
Jaime Russell: You're not going to be open. Right? The rapport is lost. And even though we want the main report to be between the provider and the patient or the, you know, the teacher and the student and the teacher and the family, the, the 2 people who are, who are having the conversation, there needs to [00:29:00] be some, you know, With the interpreter as well, of course, of course.
Jaime Russell: Yeah. And you don't want to be that interpreter that when you arrive and the, excuse me, the patient or the family is like, Oh, I got this one again. No, no. You want to be the one where they're like, Oh, thank God you're here. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course the fine line of, you know, you don't want to be the one who's also.
Jaime Russell: buying them things and driving them around. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the, that's the, the whole, the crux of when you're teaching is, you know, how, how could, how could we nuance this well enough? And I think it's something that a lot of people who work in other settings don't really understand and, and sometimes think, oh, well, healthcare interpreters, you know, just, You can be really flexible and provide all this support.
Jaime Russell: It's like, well, no, when you're interpreting, you're interpreting but when there's something that happens on the outside and we try to avoid it, but [00:30:00] inevitably it happens, then you can still be human and redirecting them is, is always the way to go. It's like, I can't, you know, I, I can't personally help you, but let me take you to somebody who can, and I'll interpret.
Jaime Russell: Exactly. And also many times the, the people who we serve. Are struggling on so many different levels, and if you in language, so if they can't speak the language of of the places where they need to acquire the services, and if you can at least help them with that aspect of it that's a huge help.
Jaime Russell: That's a huge help to them in there and you're not, you're not changing anything. You're not changing the relationship. You're not setting unrealistic expectations. Again, you know, listen and then redirect and it's something very easy, easy for us to do. And it's still, I think, within our professional role.
Jaime Russell: Yeah, no, I completely agree. Well, this is [00:31:00] already been, this is what is usually the initial first part has been, has been a wonderful discussion. Let's, I want to move on a little bit to the topic for the season, which is ai what I like to think of or like to talk about as machine interpreting, because it's not really ai in the end, I mean, AI is part of it because of, of the how enamored people are with AI to, to, to be really frank with my opinion.
Jaime Russell: It's just be, that's what people talk about. Yeah. So we can use the buzzword, but it really, what it really comes down to is machine interpreting. And that's to use that term is to pair it with machine translation, which you already actually addressed. So what is your what is your, what has your relationship been with machine interpreting, which has really, it's been on the scene for a couple of [00:32:00] years before even chat GPT with a very few players But now it's much more in the public awareness and just lay people in general, talk about AI for interpreting.
Jaime Russell: So how, how has that been for you? Well, so I mostly work in the hospital setting. And right now, it's not present in the hospital settings, at least not officially and that is because I think there's still a lot of unanswered questions regarding HIPAA, legalities, liabilities, all of that sort of stuff.
Jaime Russell: Now, my exposure to machine or AI interpreting, I've watched a bunch of like webinars and demos and things like that. All of the. How can I put it when this way, I think all of those are more controlled environments. [00:33:00] And the demos I've seen have usually been for speeches. Like, 1 way, like what a conference interpreter might do not so much for the dialogue environment where.
Jaime Russell: You have people talking at the same time. People talking over each other different noises going on. You might have somebody speaking English, but with the foreign accent, things like that. So when I have viewed these demos, I, I keep think a lot of them are really good. Right? Like scary good, but then I keep thinking that's a completely different environment from the environment I work in.
Jaime Russell: So I don't know how they would actually successfully transfer over. Into a more community interpreting setting, you know, like, if if people get bad news or they're upset, they're talking kind of [00:34:00] while they're crying and they might like, put their tissue over their face and but they're still talking at the same time.
Jaime Russell: And I think because the doesn't have the context. Of what's going on. Communication is so contextual. Human communication is so contextual which is different from translation as well. So translation is written, it's been thought out polished, edited, all that sort of stuff. So for AI to take over translation, and we've already seen it, it's Really good on a, on a lot of different levels, but that's not the way people talk.
Jaime Russell: So I don't know. I don't know what's going to end up and what's going to end up happening in a few years. You know, maybe it will get really good. But I also. With my colleagues, we talk and so. Part of what I [00:35:00] do at the hospital is I do annual evals. For actual interpreting and everybody has their style.
Jaime Russell: Everybody might choose a term for X situation and they use a different term in a different situation and it's all. Okay. It's all accurate. Interpreting and so, and they also pick up on how the original speakers are speaking and they adjust.
Jaime Russell: To that situation to that speaker to that moved a little bit and I just don't, I, I just have a hard time imagining how a machine is going to accurately render all of that nuance that goes on into the conversation. I don't know, it might get there, but I'm, I'm telling you when you have a pediatric appointment and the [00:36:00] mom's trying to talk and the baby's like, fussy and the baby's on her lap and like, starting to fuss and make all these little noises.
Jaime Russell: And, you know, I'm like, no machine can do that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that no machine. Can really do can really capture human communication because of the nature of it. And you touched on on on a lot of that. I mean, translation written translation is 1 way, and it is a little bit more about, you know, a code that's being transferred.
Jaime Russell: From one language to another, and if you, if you do have enough data, which now we're reaching the point where I think there is a lot of data for certain languages for certain language pairs, you can, you can, you can do it quite well, you can do it very, very well with. You know, with human revision that again, because of the timing of it [00:37:00] and everything can still happen and it, it can save time.
Jaime Russell: I think it can say, and I I'm seeing it saving time and in new, new and new fields, I used to think of it, well, yeah, it's, you know, instruction manuals for appliances 25 years ago, machine translation was probably pretty good, you know, it was doing, and of course, who reads the manuals. Instruction manuals, small percentage of the population. But now I think even, even with other, even with other fields, it's working or other particular types of, of documents. Whereas, like you said, with interpreting, it can be, it can be quite different.
Jaime Russell: And so what I've seen with. With interpreting is that because of the nature of the communication is quite different, right? And in a lot, if you look at communication theory itself, it talks about it being dynamic. It [00:38:00] talks about the, the meaning is co created. It's created in the moment. It's not static. So as you talk and the other person hears that and sees you and considers the past information that they have as a human, they are interpreting what's being said and they're now responding to it.
Jaime Russell: So you're co creating things as you go. So there's that aspect of it that I think is going to be quite difficult for machines to do well. And there's the, the further aspect of it, which is. Who likes communicating with chatbots? I mean, I don't know anybody who gets on the phone to call to make an appointment or anything.
Jaime Russell: And it's like, Oh, I'm thrilled that I'm now talking to an automated voice system. Right? Everybody. I mean, I get angry every single time. I can't, you know, There is no way I just, I [00:39:00] have a really hard time imagining it that I'm going to go to a doctor's appointment or a school meeting with the teacher of my children or the court or any of these settings and be okay with the fact that I'm not talking to a human.
Jaime Russell: I'm having, you know, I'm talking to a machine and I'm getting back at automated generated voice and one that. It just, I, I can't, I can't imagine it, but of course, there's a lot in our world that me personally, I don't want to imagine. I don't personally want to imagine. And I already have an issue with, you know, if I go to, which I don't really go to very much, but let's say occasionally go to fast food.
Jaime Russell: And now I'm, you know, I have to order with the screen and there are people there and I don't understand why am I forced to order this from a screen? Yeah. So, yeah, it is, [00:40:00] it is a little bit things are progressing, things change, but regarding interpreting and the use of AI in, in interpreting one thing that has really caught my attention because I tinker around with.
Jaime Russell: Different AI models, mostly chat GPT, but it doesn't know when it's wrong, so you can ask it questions and it gets it wrong. And then when you call it out on that, it's like, oh, sorry. And then it. Provide you another it's sort of like, it's throwing stuff out to see what sticks. So, in interpreting, if it's getting it wrong, it's not going to know that it's getting it wrong.
Jaime Russell: Whereas we, as humans, if we hear something and we're like, wait a second, but that doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense either the words coming out or the context or. [00:41:00] What's going on as community interpreters, which is would be different from maybe conference interpreting. We have the ability to ask questions.
Jaime Russell: To dig a little bit deeper, but. A, I is not going to be able to do that in an encounter, so it could potentially. Spit out something incorrect. And nobody knows that it's incorrect and then you might have. So, for Spanish, a lot of people, Spanish speakers understand a different degrees of English. So, they might be able to say, no, that's not what I meant.
Jaime Russell: Or we have a lot of staff members at the hospital who also speak Spanish to different degrees. And so they can understand a little bit of the conversation. So, if you get to the point where you realize. I is incorrect on something and you say, hey, I'm not sure that that's what the patient meant to say.[00:42:00]
Jaime Russell: I think like, you're going to flip it out. I don't know if is going to know what to do in that situation. So, what I potentially see as a realistic. Possibility for the future, aI in community interpreting settings is for there to be a human. Listening in, basically to that conversation for me, I'd rather be interpreting than listening, but.
Jaime Russell: You know, it might be good enough, or there might be what I also kind of foresee happening is a, a future demand being put on, for example, in a hospital setting, certain standard questions that you have to ask in a certain way. So then the AI can interpret it correctly and accurately. And then let's hope that the patient will answer in a pretty standardized fashion as well, which I [00:43:00] don't know that kind of takes out a lot of the human aspect of the interpreting.
Jaime Russell: We're people. We like to talk to each other. And no, you're right. Nobody likes to talk to a chat bot. And so what happens when you're forced to engage with the chat bot? Something goes wrong, like, do you, is there like a button going to be at the bottom of the screen or something like, you know, how, when you call the bank and you can't get through and this is what I do, I'm just like customer service.
Jaime Russell: And I just keep repeating that or say operator, is there going to be a button at the bottom of a screen for you to, like, be like, I'm done with the stuff. This is a nightmare. Let's get a real person on maybe. You know, that's quite possible. Because I also don't see if, if you're going to have a live human reviser or editor or listener in that moment, you're still going to have to pay that person to be listening.
Jaime Russell: Yes. Yeah. Which is. I've heard that idea that, you know, we'll be the prof or the [00:44:00] professional or the task really will be to revise to edit or, you know, to input when it's wrong, but it's the same thing that you said, well, who's going to do that? Nobody's going to do it for free. So maybe it'll lower the price.
Jaime Russell: So then now we have somebody with a lot less skill who's doing it, but then. If that person with less skill, because, you know, they're getting paid so little, we're not going to get somebody who's actually has a lot of skill, then what's the point? Because they're not going to be able to actually check it.
Jaime Russell: I just, I can't even imagine doing that, which a lot of people don't want to do, you know, don't want to revise, don't want to edit machine translated material either. But in interpreting, it just seems. It's even more, it just doesn't seem to make sense and how would you, it wouldn't really save time. There would always have to be that option.
Jaime Russell: Probably most people would opt for it. It reminds me also of that idea that, Oh, I know, I know some Spanish, so let me, I'll speak to the patient. And then if I get something wrong, you tell me, it's like, well, how [00:45:00] do I know what you wanted to say? I don't know that you wanted to say kidney versus liver, you know, or whatever, whatever, or, you know, just to talk about basic words, you know, not much less than.
Jaime Russell: the things that are more, that are more complicated. Yeah. Yeah. I remember listening to, to one of the presentations that Catherine Allen gave early on about, about machine interpreting and, and, and after that thinking, I think the role for providers could potentially really change to where they're giving less information and less, yeah, there's less information that's being passed on verbally.
Jaime Russell: Because they're, this can all be translated ahead of time, or not even translated, sorry, transmitted to the patient in whatever language ahead of time. Right. So that we will, you know, we'll go to a kiosk and we'll enter all of our information about, you know, past history [00:46:00] or whatever. And then it's going to give us.
Jaime Russell: Some basic stuff, or, you know, I'm dia these are my numbers. And it's like, okay, you're diabetic. Here's your treatment. Here's the video. Learn how to do it. Right. I, I think that's very likely to happen. I think it's going to suck. I don't want to participate in that kind of society, but anyway, it could, it could happen.
Jaime Russell: But the optimist in me was thinking maybe there'll be a role. For providers to then go back to what they used to do, which is offering connection and comfort and a sense of care. Yeah. And maybe that's what the, the interpreter would end up being there for. Yeah, it's quite possible, but I also think if we were to have a person as a revisor, just say.
Jaime Russell: So, highly experienced interpreters would be the best people to do that because they would be able to pick up on the nuances, the little finer [00:47:00] details and all of that sort of stuff. But how do they get there? How do they get to that skill level? And that's living it, which now. To say, you know, in 5 years, if that sort of hospital interpreter role, or even I don't know, master court interpreter role comes up, but everything lower down.
Jaime Russell: Is done in a more basic way with the AI being involved, how do those people then get their skills so sharp that they can kind of oversee this and be like, oh, no, I'm the expert. This is wrong. This needs to be corrected, blah, blah, blah. Because new professionals coming into the field aren't going to get that real world experience that makes them so sharp and so skilled at what they do.
Jaime Russell: That's true. Yeah, really, really good point. Yeah, so we, I, there's a lot to be, to be seen about it still, [00:48:00] but I don't, I'm not, I'm not scared. Are you scared? I'm not. You know what? And people ask me that and I say, listen, I am leave. I'm in the process of leaving a full time job with benefits. To go 100 percent freelance, it's because I have faith in that I'm going to be able to find work in the near future until I decide to retire.
Jaime Russell: And I don't, I don't think I'll probably ever retire. Just because, you know, I love what I do, but I said, if I were more scared, I wouldn't have made this choice. You know, and I also think I was listening to Bruce Adelson 1 time during a webinar he was giving and he was he's so funny. But he said the reason why a lot of this and I interpreting has not been implemented yet is because they can't figure out who to sue when something goes wrong.
Jaime Russell: And I think it's much more complicated when, when you put [00:49:00] in that liability layer in there, and the legal repercussions of it, things get a lot more complicated. It's just not communication. There's all this stuff that has to go on behind the scenes. And I've even been keeping an eye on some, you know, comments on LinkedIn and things like that about now, if you Punch in, like, a legal text into AI for it to translate it.
Jaime Russell: Now, it has all these disclaimers that weren't there before, like, this should not be taken as legal advice. You should consult a professional attorney and that wasn't there before. So, somebody somewhere was like, you know, nope, this is wrong. This is, you know. You know, a big goof and and we need to at least let people be made aware of that.
Jaime Russell: They shouldn't blindly trust all of this. So, yeah, 1, 1, last thing on that that I, I wanted to briefly mention just as a resource. I don't know if you've seen it yet. It came out just a few days [00:50:00] ago. I, so the international International organization for conference interpreting, they put out a campaign about AI and interpreting that's called master the message it's master the message.
Jaime Russell: aic. org, which is a I I C. org and it's really, I, I, I really like it and they put, you know, put a lot of really good thought into it and it kind of encapsulates a lot of these things. I'm trying to see if I can find a few of the. The nuggets, because I was looking at this the other day
Jaime Russell: you know, so they, they talk, they have 6 principles of it. So, and it forms the acronym master. So, meaning awareness, security, tone, engagement and reliability. That's great. And then with those, right. And then with those principles, they kind of talk about it. So when it was, you know, human experts are expert human interpreters are experts at reading in between the lines, picking up on the [00:51:00] unspoken nuances of each speaker.
Jaime Russell: Understanding the cultural context, which can have a big impact on the intended message and then say, you know, while is clearly brilliant at processing huge amounts of data in a matter of seconds. It doesn't think like a human. It doesn't understand the subtle inflection of a voice. It doesn't bridge cultural divides.
Jaime Russell: It doesn't ensure that the message is going to resonate. So, you know, very, very much what you were saying. So it's a, it's a really nice piece. It's a good campaign. They talk about how we, you know, we're the ones who can look for biases. We can foster the genuine and engagement and we add that layer of emotional intelligence and you can't.
Jaime Russell: I really, truly believe that you can't communicate without that connection, without that human element. And that is, we as beings, we're unique to it, right? This communicating through language, through the [00:52:00] words and this kind of vocalizing of language, we're very unique in it. It's very sophisticated. And it's, Very human.
Jaime Russell: It's, it's innately human. And you, you can tell when you walk into a tent situation, nobody has to say anything, but you can tell the minute you walk through the door. Ooh, you're like, Ooh, and there's no word uttered at all. Isn't that amazing how we pick up on those things? And I think, you know, a high, there is so much potential.
Jaime Russell: So they're already doing really good things in things that we're not even thinking about. I was interpreting for for a group of people. And that was part of the things that they were exploring was how to use AI in the. For the electric grid. So all kinds of really interesting, really meaningful applications that, yeah, no human wants to do, needs to do.
Jaime Russell: And the AI applications that use AI can, [00:53:00] can really make it a lot better and a lot safer. Why try to apply this for communication? Like, let, let just let us just let us be as humans, not just interpreters and translators. But So I have a theory. About that, well, 1st of all, you have all those tech bros, right? But. My theory is that a lot of this AI for translation and interpreting is actually being pushed by monolingual people who, for some reason, I think that language is, you know, Can be boiled down to code to a certain degree it can be, but I think a lot of the people who are pushing this in the so for example, there's a lot of L.
Jaime Russell: S. P. S. here in the United States whose founders. Do not speak a second language. [00:54:00] They are not from the translating and interpreting environments. And for me, that is a huge problem because there's this fundamental piece that they're missing. And so I think, Oh, well, we can just you know, boil this down to a bunch of, you know, bits and, you know, zeros and ones, and then we can translate it over.
Jaime Russell: I think. Through some fits and bursts and trial and error and stuff, we're going to realize that, you know, sure, it sounds good in theory, but at the end of the day, it doesn't really work that way. Humans don't really work that way. So leave the human communication to the humans. Yeah. If you have a appliance manual how to work your microwave, You know, great something that's sort of very routine and repetitive and things like that.
Jaime Russell: Yeah. Nobody wants to be translating that translator. Don't even want that. And even even [00:55:00] that is gone. I have noticed to a lot of icon or iconography. How are you? Is it, you know, a lot of icons instructions, which makes more sense anyway, you know, you don't even, and I'm like, we got a shelf, we ordered a shelf.
Jaime Russell: Came through the Amazon it came to our door and it's a, it's a little bit weird to set up, but even the translation of that was like, pretty bad. And I was like, I bet you, I could have done this better. It's because they're probably just printing out the same translation that was done 10 years ago.
Jaime Russell: Yeah. But I was like, we're not, we're not even using AI for the stuff it should be using for. And then we're trying to push it on other things where it should just be like off limits. I don't know. Yeah, well, we could clearly, I mean, as interpreters, right? We could go on for, we could go on for days. This is, this is really great.
Jaime Russell: Thank you. Thank you for all this. Let me, let me, let's get to the end because I [00:56:00] think we've been going for I think we've been going for a long time. I told you I like to talk, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, this is, this happens all the time. So let's finish off. We have two, two more things that I like to finish off.
Jaime Russell: So the love what you do idea. So I, you know, and I've heard you say it already. I feel really lucky that I get to do this for a living. And where, where are you out with with this? Do you still, I have a hunch of what, how you're going to say this, but would you still pitch this profession to somebody who's in high school, college, or even somebody looking for that second, third career?
Jaime Russell: So if let's start at the end. So if you're looking for a second or third career and you have strong language skills, I would say definitely. You know, because those skills that you have from your other professions or your other careers are going to transfer over. So I know a lot of people who come [00:57:00] from finance, for example, and now they're in financial translation.
Jaime Russell: A lot of people who come from legal fields and now they're in legal translation, engineering, sort of all of that stuff. So that would be a huge asset for you. If you are just starting out, you're in high school, or you're in college, and you're thinking about majoring, maybe you have strong skills in another language, I would actually recommend maybe not going into translation per se, because I do think, I think the dust will settle in a little bit, but I do think there are Are going to be a lot of jobs that have been lost already and they're not coming back.
Jaime Russell: What I would say is think broader as to for example, localization, the world is more and more global. You know, like, there's a lot of project managers and localization or even project managers and big companies that are [00:58:00] so busy and handling those projects that are related to language, different countries, different cultures, messaging.
Jaime Russell: Colors like what colors should you be using in certain countries and what colors should you avoid? So that is something bigger. I think where translation and interpreting will be a little piece of that or like 1 ingredient in the bigger recipe. For that, so that's what, you know, if my son were to come to say to me today, hey, I'm thinking about getting in translation.
Jaime Russell: I would say great. That might be a good start for you, but think bigger. Just think a little bit bigger in language in general. Transcribed Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. And communication, right? Huh. Yeah. As a, as a larger field. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So let's do our rapid fire here, lightning, the round finale. And it's funny because, you know, again, this is restarting from four years ago when the, [00:59:00] when the podcast first started.
Jaime Russell: So it'd be interesting to see if there are, if there are any changes here. So just which one, which one is for you? So notepad or digital pad, notepad, a hundred percent coffee or tea. I love coffee. But I can't drink it anymore because it really messes with my stomach. So I'm actually drinking a lot of matcha right now.
Jaime Russell: Ah. But I smell coffee. Like, if somebody has coffee, I'll just take a big whiff of it. That's, I feel like, like this is how people used to smoke. This is how they must feel. Nice, nice comparison with another vice. Yeah. What about for language learning? Are you a visual or auditory learner? I, I, for me, personally, it's both like, they're 2 sides of the same coin.
Jaime Russell: I think of language learning is like riding a bike or driving a car. You have to do the pedals and you have to steer [01:00:00] at the same time. It's not 1 or the other. In my personal opinion, I also think if you only learn language through your ear, you're missing out on so much. I think the reading and then the writing really helps cement What you're hearing through your ears and what about is there anything that you take?
Jaime Russell: Do you have a token or a special object that you take when you're interpret when you interpret my notepad? I like if I walk in without a notepad I will actually ask a staff like a front desk person or something if I can just have a sheet of paper and a pen to borrow And freelancer in house? Yeah, that's, that's a tricky time for me to answer that.
Jaime Russell: They both have their pros and their cons. I've decided to go back to freelancing because of the flexibility and the freedom that it gives, but the in house, the guaranteed income is also very nice. Yeah, they're definitely [01:01:00] advantages to both. Yeah. What about for for mode? Do you. Consecutive or simultaneous do you have a preference?
Jaime Russell: So I'm mostly dealing consecutive. Hardly ever simultaneous and it's usually, very exceptional situations, but I'm getting into simultaneous more now, as I study for the court exam, the state court exam consecutive, I think, is a little bit different because you have to switch back and forth between the languages.
Jaime Russell: Whereas for simultaneous, you only go in 1 direction. So, I don't know, I. I, you know, I kind of like them both but I'm mostly working consecutive. And is there a term or just some kind of category or area that you always get stuck on for, for terminology? Food. I can never, you know, I hear new names of foods and like vegetables and fruits and stuff like that.
Jaime Russell: And like, I'll remember it for the rest of that interpreting session. [01:02:00] And then I walk out and it's gone. And even if I write it down on my notepad. I don't remember it, like, the next day, so I'm constantly having to ask people to repeat themselves or explain what that is. And I don't know why it just does not stick.
Jaime Russell: It's probably, I probably have to eat it to for it to stick in my brain. Yeah, that's it. That's like, well, it's there. They can be so different because I. I think, is it dragon fruit that in Portuguese is pitaya, I think, which is just totally, totally different, you know, star fruit just doesn't, and it may be, you know, those words that are so visual, you know, star dragon and then totally different in the other language.
Jaime Russell: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Finally, what's a favorite podcast? So, I love the in podcasts, it's by 2 Argentine women and they are so funny and they're so, like, realistic and down to earth. That's in Spanish. And then the other [01:03:00] podcast that I'm listening to currently, I go in sort of podcast immersions. So, I, like, do a podcast.
Jaime Russell: I'll listen to all the episodes. And then I'll move on to another podcast. But the one I'm currently listening to is called the Huberman Lab. It's by Andrew Huberman. He's a neuroscientist. He's based out in California. I love learning how the brain works. And that's also, I think, comes from knowing how we interpret.
Jaime Russell: Because that's, I think that's magic for a lot of us. We do it, we don't realize how we're doing it. If someone were to ask me, well, how exactly do you do it? I'd be like I don't know. Same with translation. So, that podcast, I just find it so fascinating about how the mind works, how the brain works.
Jaime Russell: And then I'm like, oh, oh, that's probably why I do that. That's probably why I do this other thing. So, and I think the more. We become aware of how we work, then the better we're going to [01:04:00] be kind of as human beings in our relationships with others. Yeah. I love the Hooverman lab too. It's a great one. I mean, in terms of podcasts, I'm the opposite of you.
Jaime Russell: I. And it's just like I do with reading. It's like, I'll, I'd listen to, you know, 10, 15 of them rotating. I was like, what am I in the mood for today? Okay, I'll go with that one. But his is very, very, very good in terms of information. And it's their, his guests are really good. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jamie.
Jaime Russell: This has been wonderful. Real, real pleasure. Thank you again for agreeing to do it and for helping me relaunch the podcast and this new season. Well, thank you. No, this was so much fun. And I know this is going to be a great season for you as you get this up and running again. Looking forward to it.
Jaime Russell: Thank you. Thank you. Okay. I'll see you soon. Okay. Goodbye.